Sunday, February 17, 2019

History, Not Prescience (I pray)


              It was odd, today, revisiting the Methodist Episcopal Church’s split over the issue of slavery.
              For the last few weeks I have been teaching the parents of our rather large Confirmation Class. They agreed to share the journey with their kids. While youth counselors and others have been teaching the confirmands, the parents have been meeting with me.
            
               Some were raised United Methodist. Some came from other traditions. One of the men, I recently baptized (at the same time I baptized his daughters), and another made a reaffirmation of his faith. Anyway, these are really good folk and I am proud they are so engaged.
               In previous sessions I have gone over some of the very basics: Our:
               Origins—“Dry” Anglicanism; Wesley’s at Oxford, in Savannah, on the boat, in Germany; the “Aldersgate Experience” (May 24, 1738); small groups
               Features—bible study and prayer, personal holiness and peer accountability, faith and good works (heart and hand)
               Theology/Doctrine:
What we share with others Christians: Triune God, Salvation in Jesus Christ, Scriptures and Sacraments, imago dei, Kingdom of God
What are our Distinctive Emphases: Aspects and functions of Grace; “responsible Grace” (faith and good works, mission and ministry, personal and social holiness.
              But it was so strange, today, to talk about American Methodist History, and to tell of the moral and spiritual failure of our Methodist ancestors. That is, to acknowledge again the sad fact that economics and prejudice took precedent over faith and its corollaries: hope and love.
              I will have more to say about this in subsequent posts—and about the sermon I preached today, taking a cue from Joshua Rothman’s essay in the January 21, 2019 of The New Yorker entitled, “Choose Wisely: Do We Make the Big Decisions, or Do They Make Us.” But for now, I include the class notes I used today as a reminder, and a primer for what is to come.

              These notes are not exhaustive, of course (I did all this in 45 minutes), but suggestive of the issues back in the day. Are they a harbinger?

(American) Methodist History:

(1744: First “Conference” in London: The Wesley’s, four ordained, four “lay brothers,” asking what shall we preach and how shall we preach it?

1776: Declaration of Independence (Wesley advises American Methodists to stay loyal)

1784: Methodist Episcopal Church formed at “Christmas Conference” and Lovely Lane Chapel in Baltimore

MEC is “anti-slavery” very early. Methodist missionaries encouraged slave-owners in the south to “manumit” their slaves, and many did. Baptist and Methodist preachers in the south encouraged better conditions for slaves based on white Christian’s “paternal responsibilities” for the slaves.
                           BUT: 1794: Cotton Gin—

                           South is desperate to make cotton profitable, and the gins required more labor. Working conditions deteriorated; slave uprisings.

The cotton economy prompted the south became more rigid pro-slavery, while Methodists in the North became more stridently abolitionist.

1832: James Osgood Andrew, a Methodist pastor in Oxford, GA (or Athens), is consecrated bishop. By 1842, he owns slaves.
Multiple theories as to how he acquired them: a) bought a young woman to  protect her from a less kind master, but let her work independently and keep her wages; or b) married a woman who, when she died, bequeathed him a slave left to her; c) subsequently married a widow whose first husband had been a slave owner… these are matters of continuing debate.

1840: Bishop Andrew was investigated by the MEC, but not charged.

1844: He was suspended from episcopal duty, which prompted “articles of separation” to be

              drawn-up.

1846: The Church splits (at least) three ways: MEC; MEC, South; Methodist Protestant Church (MPC), which is Wesleyan in theology but congregational in polity

1858: ME, South: 511K white members, 197K African American members, 11K Native American

Members; operating (106 schools and colleges)

James Osgood Andrew was founding Trustee of Central University, later renamed…  wait for it… Vanderbilt!

1866: Only 49K African-Americans remain
                           (AME, AME, Zion, CME; Wesleyans, Nazarenes, Salvation Army)

1939: Methodist Church (the three main groups reunite)

1968: The Methodist Church unites with the Evangelical United Brethren
The EUB were themselves a merger of the Evangelical Association/Church and the Church of the United Brethren in Christ (both ethnically German, theologically Wesleyan churches) to form The United Methodist Church (these two “source” traditions are represented by the two tongues of flame on the UM Logo)

2019: ?
Please pray for the delegates and the General Conference.

Friday, February 15, 2019

Pre-Amblings, Part 2: A Day with the Monks

February 15, 2019


I

              Today I had opportunity to pray with the monks at Belmont Abbey. Alleluia. Amen.

I am too sporadic in my attendance at the Abbey to call such prayer one of my spiritual disciplines; but I do make the pilgrimage when time and opportunity allow.

Praying with the monks is always balm to my soul. It was especially so today. And why?

I leave Thursday for St. Louis, for the special, called General Conference of the United Methodist Church related to human sexuality and, specifically, our denomination’s polity and practices related to the marriage and ordination of gay persons. I will observe first-hand the debate and actions of delegates who have been elected from all over the world and who represent widely divergent theological convictions, growing-out of conflicting interpretations of scripture, which are accompanied by fervently-held hopes and fears.

II

In a previous post (“Pre-Amblings,” February 5) I offered an overview of the four options before us: the Modified Traditional Plan, the One-Church Plan, the Connectional Conference Plan, and the Simple Plan. In a second post (“What Are the Collaterals,” February 12), I included a link to a chart that tries to anticipate the organizational/structural changes that would result from the passage of any one of the plans: “If this, then this.

Today, though, as I headed south on I-85, I was not thinking in such administrative or objective terms. I was grieved in spirit: wondering what is to become of us United Methodists. I knew I needed the solace that prayer alone can offer, and not just “prayer,” but the specific kind of praying the monks do at Belmont Abbey.  I needed not just solace, either, but the wisdom and guidance that my soul desperately seeks.  

              Which is to say, anticipating, dreading, hoping, despairing, most of all seeking, I made a special effort to go pray with the monks—and also to “conference” with a few UM pastor-friends who I knew would be there.

III

We never know who will show up: our little group is in constant flux due to personal and even pastoral circumstance. Geography, too, plays a part, as when a pastor is moved. We may be more or less inconsistent, but the college is constant in its generous hospitality: we are regularly granted space in the Gallagher Building to meet and talk. Specifically, to discuss common, agreed-upon reading.

Before us today was a book with, for most of us, an unpromising title: On God and Christ: The Five Theological Orations and Two Letters to Cledonius. In truth it was pretty dense stuff—essays by a Church Father named Gregory Nazianzus—but we noted a spectacular line in the introductory notes by Lionel Wickham which seemed to have special relevance for us this week.

Regarding a heretical group St. Gregory opposed, Wickham writes, “Their church, though, had, like all one-issue groups, only a (weak) hold on (continuing) existence. Founded on doctrinal purity it perished on it.” (p. 17).

I sat there thinking, if our church, strives for doctrinal purity, on one side or the other—if that is our only issue at this point—either “side” may well perish on it. And at this point we have only a “infirm hold on a perduring existence” (his actual verbage).  

It seems to me that those who can hold the middle (not simply for the sake of unity, but for the sake of love and charity) have a better chance, by God’s grace and enduring hospitality, to endure.  

IV

As usual, we started at 10:30. At 11:40, we abruptly adjourned to make our way over to the “Mary, Help of Christians” basilica (https://belmontabbeycollege.edu/about/belmont-abbey-monastery/basilica-mary-help-of-christians/)—which is the big church-like building you have probably seen from I-85. We walked down the long center aisle, climbed granite steps and passed the high altar, took places prepared for us in the split choir loft.

As is always the case, monks sat in seats on both sides of the loft. We were directed to the right. We entered quietly, took our seats quietly, sat quietly till prayer begins. All the monks, and some of the visitors, waited closed-eyed. I, though, pondered the great painted-glass windows that rise above the loft: portraits of St. Patrick, St. Boniface, St. Gregory and others, each with a hand raised in blessing.

The saints keep serene vigil over those who come to the basilica to pray.  

              A monk, opposite us, stood to sing the first line of the greeting: “O God, come to our aid.”

The rest of us stood and sang, “O Lord, make haste to help us.”

The monk sang, “Glory be to Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.”

We sang, “As it was in the beginning, is now and forever amen. Alleluia.”

We remained standing as the monk started singing an acapella hymn. Then we sat. Then we prayed. There was a reading from Isaiah. There was a benediction. We were out.

The service had lasted fifteen minutes.

V

Every part of the morning—the book study, the whole service, every part of the service—spoke to me today: spoke both the comfort and truth I needed to hear.

The Greeting: it is indeed my prayer for St. Louis. I do pray that God comes to our aid, that God will make haste to help us. That God will be glorified as we seek the divine will. That the “now and forever, Amen” will be sounded again among our delegates and observers. I also believe that however our group or situation changes and for whatever reason, the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Love of God, the fellowship of the Holy Spirit will be with us all.

The Hymn: words I had never sang, set to a tune I didn’t know: but even that a comfort in its own way: that the praise continues, can carry me along, even when I am ill-equipped to help. I will not be able to lend my voice this next week, either, but I believe there are those who can, and will, and God will be praised.  

The Prayers of the monks are quite unlike the praying that many of us who grew up Protestant may even recognize as prayer. The monks’ prayers are not spontaneous—monks on either side take turns reading, slowly, the verses from three pre-selected Psalms. They are not personal: at least they are not private. Benedictines all over the world were praying the very same Psalms as we in Belmont, NC.

The monks prayers are not emotional, as if emotion demonstrates authenticity. There is almost no rise or fall in voice or emotion, beginning to end.

Now, there are long gaps of silence here and there—where the intent is for us to quieten our souls completely. But today I found myself inserting “personal” prayers into the silences: prayers for the delegates, the churches, the bishops, the pastors, the General Conference itself.

The words and the silences: whatever our concerns, spoken or unspoken, whatever we insert into the silences—the silences and intercessions are themselves bracketed by verses of scripture that are both ancient and powerfully immediate.

The Reading: today from Isaiah: the famous passage that Jesus uses as he begins his own ministry: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind-up the broken-hearted, to proclaim freedom to the captives, recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed… and to announce the year of the Lord’s favor.”

May it be so! For today, there are so many in our church who feel broken-hearted and blind. So many who are captive and oppressed (and not just delegates!). What a comfort to hear, to believe, that soon and very soon there will be freedom on account of God’s anointing! That God will help us see and be healed! That we will know God’s favor!

How that will appear or be experienced, we do not know. But that very same word and hope and experience has sustained Jews and Christians for well over 2000 years. It will sustain us still.

+

The Basilica itself was a blessing.

Mary, Help of All Christians. As a United Methodist, I do not attribute it to Mary, but I do trust in the promise that there is help for all Christians on either side of conflict and even division. Remember: almost six hundred years ago, in Europe, the Roman Church split into Catholic and Protestant pieces. Five hundred years before that, the Church had split East and West. What we now call Orthodoxy, Catholicism and Protestantism are the living and vibrant offspring of cataclysmic schisms that not only did not kill the work of Jesus in the world, but, it could be argued, expanded Jesus’ work and ministry, and advanced the cause of the Gospel.   

(Full disclosure: I grew up Baptist. We were famous for church splits. And for the kind of growth that almost always resulted on the other side of it. Phyllis Tickle has noted the phenomena, too, in her The Great Emergence, that when churches move to jettison what is unnecessary, that makes them retain what is necessary, and that what emerges is more energetic and able to witness and grow.)

And Belmont Abbey’s Gallagher Room, too. As I sat there, with an Icon on one wall and a crucifix on another; I, a UM pastor and heir to the English Reformation, engaged in “holy conferencing” with other Ums, and knowing something of the violent history that has attended the Church’s (and churches’) history, I thrilled to anticipate and pray for the time when “today’s acrimony,” vitriolic as it may be, gives way to produce tomorrow’s repentance and forgiveness, to deeper cooperation and more generous hospitality. May God haste the day.

VI

At lunch, I ate with a delegate from our Conference, who is in favor of the Modified Traditional Plan (and one of the best guys I know). His father died on Tuesday, and he too felt the need to make the trip to pray at the Abbey: to be with his UM friends, and with the monks, at a place where constancy and serenity can indeed calm a frenzied, fractious spirits. Where buildings, and windows, and the long-unchanged patterns of prayer remind us that, Yes, things change.

There is life and death.

There are gatherings and partings. And there is one God—the same yesterday, today and forever.

              My friend said he expects it to get ugly. He thinks there will be protests and demonstrations, shouting and yelling—that security will have to be called and often, perhaps, as some of the observers and protesters will, he believes (and has seen) want to get arrested. As a sign of their “prophetic faithfulness,” I guess, their willingness to “suffer” for the cause.   

              I shook my head, thinking of what a poor witness to the unity and grace Jesus died to provide.

But I also found myself thinking about Father Abraham, and what he said to his nephew Lot when the “land” was not able to sustain them both: “If you go the right, I will go to the left. If you go to the left, I will go to the right.” They were kin, even though they no longer got along. And even after they parted company, they remained so—Father Abraham rescued his nephew in fact, from marauders.  

Likewise, my hope—and this phrasing is not original with me, though I cannot remember who said it—that God will grant to all of us a way to remain kin: “close enough to remember and recognize that we are on the same journey, but with enough administrative distance that we not vex each other’s spirit.”

Perhaps the way we take leave says as much to the world as the way we come together. As my friend said, “If your marriage is broken and there is no way to make it a Christian marriage, the best you can do is fashion a Christian divorce.”
              Pray for our General Conference.            

Tuesday, February 12, 2019

What Are the Collaterals?

Each of the four plans I summarized in my first blog have some foreseeable, and some unforeseeable consequences for congregations, clergy, bishops, Annual Conferences, Boards and Agencies. Call them "collaterals," not in the sense of "damage," necessarily, but certainly in the way of necessary changes in the way we have been organized and do business as a church. 

While it is impossible to anticipate all the implications of whatever plan is affirmed by the majority of delegates to General Conference--and while it will take years for all of the changes to take place--the chart you will find at this link comparing three of the plans is very helpful (our Conference Board of Ordained Ministry reviewed and discussed this chart at their February meeting, which Pastor Carrie attended):

https://www.wnccumc.org/files/websites/www/gc2019-comparison-three-plans-edited.pdf.


You will notice that the Simple Plan is not represented in the chart. The advocates of this position maintain, as I understand it, that there will be no necessary changes to any of the structures or agencies of the general church. Rather, the restrictive language in the Book of Discipline would be removed. As a consequence, Annual Conferences would examine and ordain clergy regardless of matters of sexuality and apart from consideration of such questions. In the case of gay marriage, congregations would discuss and discern whether or not such marriages would be held on church property, and pastors would determine for themselves whether or not to conduct such a service.

I hope you will take time to look over this chart. I find it quite helpful.

Thursday, February 7, 2019


Pastor Tom’s General Conference Blog, #1: Pre-Ambling

February 5, 2019

I

              Soon, I will be traveling to St. Louis to observe the proceedings of the 2019 General Conference of the United Methodist Church. You can link to the UMC’s official portal for all things related to this special, called General Conference here: http://www.umc.org/topics/general-conference-2019-special-session.

              I am not a delegate, just a workaday preacher there to see what unfolds. I intend to send-back blogs, notes and observations of what I am seeing and hearing. I want you to be as informed as you can be about what is happening and how it might affect us down the road (note well: whatever is decided in St. Louis will only begin a process of church-wide ratification).

This first blog will, I hope, give you some helpful background, and ready us for what will come to light in just a few weeks.

First, that bit of necessary history.

II

              From the very beginnings of what we now know as Methodism, our founder, John Wesley (1703-1791), and his brother Charles (1707-1788), believed in what they called “holy conferencing.”

At Oxford, during their student days, they convened a “holy club” that met for prayer, bible study and what we would call “accountability.” Later, as that small group grew into a far-flung movement of spiritual renewal throughout the Church of England, the Wesley’s invited clergy and others to help chart the future course of what would eventually become the Methodist denomination.

The first such Conference was held in London in 1744. There were all of ten in attendance!

John and Charles, four other clergy, and four “lay brothers” agreed, first, to submit to the unanimous judgment of the rest in every practical point.” Then they set about to discuss and decide this basic question: “What shall we preach and how shall we preach it?”

In many ways Methodists still hold to that model, in hopes of answering that same question.  

Over the years many different kinds of “conferences” were established—at different times, for different contexts and purposes. One particular gathering, however, was vested with primary administrative authority for all United Methodists everywhere: The General Conference.

III

Those who have long been a part of the United Methodist Church have at least heard the term, General Conference, even if they are not always sure what, exactly, it signifies or does.

For those who are new to the denomination, here’s the skinny:

Every four years, roughly one thousand delegates from around the world (half clergy and half laity) are elected to represent the various geographical, regional and national constituencies of our global denomination. They convene for two weeks to consider, revise and even rewrite The Book of Discipline of the United Methodist Church.

The Book of Discipline is the “operations manual” of the UMC at every level—from our Constitution to our congregations and their committees; from General Boards and Agencies to their make-up and mandates; from pastors and their duties to church officers and their responsibilities; from the care of church property to the disposition of church and Church assets.

Also included are our theological emphases, our requirements and processes for ordination, and our social principles (the way UM’s are encouraged to think ethically and socially about the world in which we live).

United Methodists consider Scripture, preeminently, along with Tradition, Reason and Experience, as the “sources” for our theology and our church’s work. We believe and affirm that the reading and application of the Bible are and should be rightly influenced by our various histories, ways of thinking and life experiences.

Unsurprisingly, our uniform allegiance to scripture does not and should not produce unanimous agreement on specific biblical interpretations. When our understandings diverge, we hope that spiritual humility will enable us to learn, gratefully, from each other.

Likewise, the Book of Discipline—while it is “our” one book, we have recognized (and affirmed) that there always will be and everywhere should be some variation and flexibility as to the ways some parts of the Discipline are understood, adapted and applied. Still, we maintain our “connection” through our commitment to Scripture, the traditions of Mr. Wesley’s church, open-minded learning (we hope), and personal holiness/missional service (we pray).

IV

For fifty years now—since the General Conference of 1968—United Methodists have been discussing, arguing, dealing with and trying to reach some sort of consensus (or compromise) on the “administrative” issues related to human sexuality. Specifically, will UM pastors (and local churches) endorse, perform, bless and sanctify same-sex marriages? Will gay persons who are “self-avowed (and) practicing” be ordained and given the authorities and responsibilities of clergy?

Some would say that these two “administrative issues” are unrelated to the worth of gay persons. Even those who oppose both “gay marriage” and “ordination of gays” affirm the sacred worth of all God’s children; just that in these two instances, certain bible verses and some church traditions preclude such marriages and ordinations.

Others argue that the issues of worth cannot be separated from marriage and ordination: that whom we love and would marry, and an individual’s sense of holy calling must be affirmed by the church through ritual blessing and endorsement… else the language of “sacred worth” means little.

Sincere people, people of good faith, long-time friends and colleagues stand on either side of the divide. I do believe everyone is trying to do what is right to be faithful and loving and hopeful.

We just cannot seem to agree on what that is.

Over the last half-century, divisions over these matters have only deepened and walls have only hardened. Advocacy groups, on either side, have formed and still work to shape opinion. Rhetoric has grown more vitriolic and administrative threats have grown more intense.

At least as early as the General Conference of 2004 there was a petition “for amicable division” circulated among the delegates. The anonymous initiative was soundly defeated, but ever since there has been an increasing sense that schism over this “issue” or set of issues may be inevitable.  

(Another historical note: Methodism split once before, three ways, over the cluster of issues related to slavery. Though the three “pieces” of that split reunited in 1939, that failure of Methodist moral nerve has haunted us ever since.)

V

At the 2016 General Conference, a study group was formed: “The Commission On A Way Forward.” It was charged with making recommendation to our Council of Bishops prior to and in view of a special General Conference, called and convened to discuss this one issue alone.

This is the General Conference I will attend later this month in St. Louis.

Not one but three basic recommendations grew out of the committee’s work—and a fourth has been submitted independently. While the commission itself wrote only the first two below, the other two (written by ad hoc groups) are also before the delegates. (You may read the entire 231 page report here: http://s3.amazonaws.com/Website_Properties/council-of-bishops/news_and_statements/documents/Way_Forward_Report_-_Final_-_ENGLISH.pdf.

 

The One Church Plan was endorsed, though not unanimously, by our Council of Bishops. It calls (basically) for geographic, regional, national areas, and ultimately even local churches and their clergy, to make determinations about gay marriage and the ordination of gay persons within their own discreet contexts. The decision of North Carolina United Methodists regarding these specific matters, for example, may differ from the decision of, say, the UMC in Nigeria. This plan notes that many of our ministries, as well as the interpretation and application of the Discipline, are already “contextual” (adapted to local situations and need). The OCP has as its main aim the unity of the global United Methodist church by means of a host of other issues related to our historic missions and ministries. You may read more about this (and the other plans) here: https://www.umnews.org/en/news/plans-prayerfully-pondered-by-united-methodists.

 

The Modified Traditional Plan calls for the retaining of controversial language that has been part of the Book of Discipline since 1968 (though, significantly, only in our social principles and not in our official theological platforms): that the UM church, while affirming the sacred worth of every person, considers the “practice of homosexuality to be incompatible with Christian teaching” and that pastors are barred from performing gay marriages, and that “self-avowed practicing homosexuals” are not to be ordained (notice: nothing is said about orientation, just about practice). In the MTP, the language would be not only retained but even strengthened, with swift investigation of and harsh punitive consequences for dissenting clergy, bishops, or geographical constituencies where marriages/ordinations are conducted. This plan is modified, because some of the original language and instrumentation of an earlier Traditional Plan was ruled unconstitutional by our church’s Judicial Council. You may read more about this plan here: http://tomlambrecht.goodnewsmag.org/what-is-the-modified-traditional-plan.

 

The Connectional Conference Plan is based on the “Worldwide Anglican Communion” model, and calls, basically, for a loosely configured “Worldwide Methodist Church” made-up of separate, self-governing bodies. Apart from certain historic, theological and missional connections, these separate, self-governing bodies would be discreet denominations with their own administrative rules and practices. Though some UM scholars actually consider the CCP to be our best alternative, it has little chance to succeed on account of the numerous constitutional changes and amendments it would require. (The Judicial Council has ruled the OCP largely constitutional; the MTP would require a few amendments or changes). You may read more about the CCP here: https://um-insight.net/in-the-church/a-way-forward/the-connectional-conference-plan-and-the-scope-of-the-commis.

 

A fourth plan, put forward by The UM Queer Clergy Caucus (following a plan first-offered by The Reconciling Ministries Network plan submitted to GC 2016), is called The Simple Plan. The plan calls, simply, for the removal of all the controversial Disciplinary language and its attending collaterals. You may read about this plan here: https://www.umqcc.org/a-simple-plan; or here: https://um-insight.net/resurrecting-the-umc-the-simple-plan.

 

IV

These plans are before the delegates; intense lobbying has been going on since the report was made available last July.

As those first London delegates did so long ago, all the St. Louis delegates and all the churches may agree to submit to the “judgment of the rest in every practical point,” but right now it is hard to imagine the possibility of a “unanimous judgment” about the issues at hand.  

Whatever is passed—or perhaps none of the plans will have enough support to become “our” United Methodist position—another, regular General Conference will be held in 2020. The church will go on in one form or another. God willing and my health agreeing, I will remain the pastor at HLUMC, and Pastor Carrie will continue serving with me.

We will continue our work here in Charlotte, in other words: worshiping, growing, serving.

I do anticipate that whatever is decided or not decided at the General Church level, there will be heartache and blame, acrimony and division. Do not be surprised if you hear of departures and less than graceful exits, whether of persons, clergy, congregations, even groups of congregations pulling out of the UMC in favor of independence, or new denominational alignments.

But at Hawthorne Lane we will continue to follow Jesus, make disciples and transform lives.

I pray for a miracle in St. Louis: that God will show us a way to honor our Scriptures, the church’s traditions, our various ways of thinking and all our divergent experiences into one Church. In other words, I pray for something that will surprise us, one and all!

Even as I do, I am confident that by God’s grace our congregation and its ministry will continue to thrive. And thrive even more.

I will be writing a blog (or two, or three) each day from St. Louis. I have no particular wisdom or insight to offer, but I want to be there as it happens.

I will be as faithful as I can be to a) offer faithful impressions of the discussions, b) record as honestly as I can both the actions of the General Conference delegates, c) and interpret as presciently as I can what it might all mean for us.

And on Sunday, March 3 (the Sunday after I return from St. Louis) I will hold, as it were, “a special, called conference,” a Town Hall, immediately following worship—to report and discuss further.

Please pray for our delegates, for me, and for our church in this unprecedented season.

Fishing for the Future

takemefishing.org I was supposed to go fishing this afternoon.  Didn’t happen, though. Bummer. I love to fish, though I do not...